Ideas to rebalance MP; RTW Mod?

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Louis Ste Colombe
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Ideas to rebalance MP; RTW Mod?

Post by Louis Ste Colombe » Fri Feb 18, 2005 15:09

As it is today, RTW suffers from some unbalance. I think some of that can be corrected by selection good setting (lower denarii = less uber units), but, as an alternative, I'd like to have feedbacks on modding RTW to rebalance it.

I am fully aware that most MP mods are not successfull, the main issue being that all players need the mod to play the game. Keeping that in mind, I'll try to keep the mod as simple as possible (modding only export_descr_unit file), and I'd like to trigger a discussion of what would needs to be done for a MP mod you would like to play.

Here are my thoughts about what I'd like to mod. the purpose of this topic is to have your feedback about it!

- lower kill speed a bit, probably by adding a couple of defense point to all units (excluding missile).
- I can't touch overall speed since it's not in export_descr_unit_file
- change the stat_ground so that there is no "hidden" bonus for some factions in some settings. I don't know if that stat is disabled in MP, but I am not taking chances. I am thinking something like
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0 for infantry units
stat_ground 0, 0, -6, 0 for cavalry units (including elephant, chariot, etc...)
If some factions rely heavily on those bonus to be good, I might mod some...
- I'll probably make all infantry units hardy, and all cavalry units non hardy.
- stat_heat will be increased for units with heavy armour. Right now, it does not matter much, and desert hardly makes a difference
- general cost increase for all cavalry units by 10%. All armor piercing capable cavalry units will get 15% cost increase. Egyptian desert cavalry will get a special treatment :)
- some change in some infantry units: praetorian cohorts 950, urban cohorts 1100. Time to see some normal legions, and not the ubber kind.
- probably make the Horse archer attack "thrown" unless there is issue associated with that solution to the missing parthian shot bug.
- change in missile: increase a bit the slinger range so that they nearly match archer. Make javelin AP (that's a dangerous one...). Other wise, no change in either armour or archery. I am quite happy with archer damage in 1.2 with the correction of the shield bug.

Your thoughts?

Louis,

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Post by ladyAn » Fri Feb 18, 2005 20:39

Balancing the game may means to take a faction as a whole, not unit for unit. It is true not many unit can kill elephants. But for a war elephant costing 2500 bucks, I could use 5 faulxmen to kill it and yet may come out ahead. Many factions are weaken not because they lack good units, but because they don't have cheap archers for example. When Romans could field roman archers ( at 190 bucks a unit) and you could field only chosen archers (at 700 pop), it hurts.

Desert cav may not be a problem if egypt didn't have those cheap and numerous archers, excellent chariots and relatively good phalanx to boot.

I am not saying tuning some units is bad, just want to point out that the whole thing has to be balanced at a crtain denarii level and taking into account a whole avalability.

[edit] am pretty sure I didn't answer any of the comments you raised. My question is: do you specify yet a denari level? And what you are going to do with the upgrade structure? That's a fundamental flaw and it is hard to fix.

Annie
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Post by Louis Ste Colombe » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:41

I fully agree that balancing is a multi dimension problem; one of those dimension is faction, another one is unit type.

We can make all factions very good with heavy cavalry, and all of them with very poor infantry: that would result in balanced faction, but unbalanced unit type. All factions would be able to play with heavy cavalry, and all we would see would be heavy cavalry.

We can also make unit type balanced, and make sure RPS is respected; in that case, some factions with huge gap in their unit roster will be critically hurt.

Or we can try to make both.

Regarding desert cavalry, I disagree; given there is no tax penalty for buying more than 4 units as in MTW, one unit being way overpowered results in one army made of that single unit. Even if Egypt had no archer, players would still build all desert cavalry army (or all cataphracts army... or all whatever).
The lack of 4+ tax makes the faction balance a lot more dependant on unit balance than what it used to be with MTW.

However, I fully agree that the lack of archer really hurts some faction. that's why I thought about increasing the range of slingers; to give more of a chance in missile to Carthage, Britain and Spain. But you are right that it still leaves Gauls and Germany without good cheap medium range missile.
For Gaul and Germany, the best solution is probably to add a low cost archer, similar to the Dacian.
Do you think modding slingers to get their range up to 90% of archer range would be enough (today slinger range is 66% of archer range)? Or would you give Carthage, Spain and Britain a low cost archer too?

Louis,

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Post by Louis Ste Colombe » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:43

I forgot to answer your question :roll: 8)

I'd like to play from 5000 to 10000, making it possible to buy 20 units, but not possible to upgrade them.

Louis,

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Post by ladyAn » Mon Feb 21, 2005 20:14

CWC currently is playing at 15k RTW. This is very bad. I feel that at 15k, the game is favoring several factions with good cavs and good infantry. In that case, it is main romans with lots of archers and upgraded infantry/cav.

I do enjoy the games at 6k-8k range though. The flaws are not too bad. Include Egyptians.

Annie
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Post by Gustavus2 » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:56

We ever tried more balance of MOD for Shogun/MI. It was developed by the Nice
and Creative of Tosa, or Yuuki, or both? Sorry(to Tosa/Yuuki), I forgot.
If I recall right, the version we played was 1.3 and easy switching between
official MI and this MOD by clicking away of a small BAT file.

As I know, basically, this MOD rose Monks(and Naginata? I know Mizus love Nagi
and Yari in Shogun and MI :) ) a bit for MI, Monks were too strong in Shogun but way
too weak(combined with their cost) in MI.

We played this MOD all the time with Mizus, Rages and others. Although I didn't
think of there was any problem within official MI but this MOD did bring much
fun for us Shogun veterans.

So, as you all know this very well already. A MOD could get supportted as much
as possible may need,

1, The MOD could not be TOO special such as Napoleon MOD for MTW. TOO special
of MOD will limit its users only to whom specially interesting on some narrow
range of weapons, units, era and so on.

2, The MOD must be very easy switching between official and the MOD itself. Says,
as easy as a dog/cat can click a mouse button to switch.
So also bring the simplify the MOD, a text file for (units)definition and a bat
file for switching. Simple is best.

You know, there are many kind of people out there, I ever suggested a player to
use a key to open his CD case so he can get his CD-Key to play on-line.
(Then he asked me where he can find the key for his CD case? In game box or
somewhere? I told him that he need to send the registered card back to company
then they will mail him the key for free. Ok, I am evil. :P )

3, A place to host the MOD, ORG is a good idea, and ask players we know nicely
for testing the MOD.


Focusing on MOD for RTW 1.2.
I checked the 5K game log from Annie.
I am sorry I must say, maybe 5K/6K games are fun but to many players, only take
13, 14 of units to play a poor game is not what they want for RTW, the deluxe
RTS game. When people's system is good enough to handle this game then I don't
think that they will stand for taking units less than full of 20.

So I agreed Louis, the Koku level may less than 10K but gotta be enough to let
players bring full of 20 units to play games.

Maybe 8K is a better idea?


Let's develop the MOD, may ask Mizus or others to join, and test it.
Then we will need to market it. :)

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Post by Gustavus2 » Tue Feb 22, 2005 14:07

And, for the 15K rule of CWC for RTW.

This bring something like A or B or C but just not A+B+C.

We develop the MOD anyway and have fun within ourselves or plus some
other friends. Then forget about the CWC/CWB.

Or, as a clan, clan wars(CWC/CWB) are we mainly want to join in.

So we may try to affect CWC managers to adjust the Koku to lower level such as
10K or even 8K is better. But I doubt that we have power to do so or need to sign
something, again? (This will need to ask other clans to join us, too.)

Or, forget about the unbalance unless they are too huge so hard to ignore them.
Enemies can buy something good in game, indeed, but, SO DO WE.
So get used to it and target on clan wars games(since we are a clan) then start
to play 10K to 15K games, sooner is better.

Of course, MOD can still keep for FUN party time.

But you know, the time would not allow us to TRY TO DO EVERYTHING.

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Post by ladyAn » Tue Feb 22, 2005 16:43

I think we shouldn't be specializing in too low denari (of the 6k range). One bad thing about playing low denari: the good players don't want 6k. When I hosted 6k alone, they don't want to enter. When I host 10k, more interesting people shows up.

However, at higher denari, bad things start to happen. Many factions became useless, overpowered by some stronger factions. Also, idiotic behavior starts to show too: buying all preat cav or all cataphracts and just running around with it, things like that.

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Post by Spectre » Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:30

I don't pretend to know the game yet, but around 10k (maybe 8-10k) feels like the most balanced denarii amount to me ("balanced" meaning that it makes the largest amount of factions "viable".) If you go much lower, you won't have as much options in army picking; you're pretty much restricted to the most cost-effective factions & units. Then again, higher denarii favor the factions with expensive units (elephants or cataphracts maybe) or Romans, who have an even spectrum of units to choose from.

Romans are a bit too all-round for my taste. Maybe they should have more expensive cavalry and/or archers?

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