5 FF online today

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ladyAn
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5 FF online today

Post by ladyAn » Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:03

There are 5 FFers playing RTW today. The place was really warmer when I see old friends. It was fun.

Annie
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Gustavus2
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Post by Gustavus2 » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:24

I played 4 games, dropped one, so just got 3 of replays. Then I need to take
kid went school.


Game1 Replay,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I01.rpy
(About 183KB)
Game1 Log,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I01.txt
Players:
[FF]Tempiic / [FF]MoonShadow / RTK9Dagonet / [FF]Gustavus2
{DRG}Zeus / War_Dragon15 /solo /{EGCOB}PatheticShamen
PS:
This game was my first on-line game after 1.2 patch. And, it was quite funny
to me since I didn't know what happened about another part of our side. I saw
the one of RTK's cav run around my army and many times almost made me attacking
him. Also, I tried to find out what happened at Sunshine side but just saw some
of her flags surrounded some of the Egypt flags, and moved slowly cause they were
very far away from me. Looked so funny. Then I noticed Moonlight's army split
at least 2 parts, one was there and one neared me.
There was a big gap at our battle line, so were enemies.
It was chaotic, confusional, funny but also true fun game, to me.


Game2 Replay,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I02.rpy
(About 219KB)
Game2 Log,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I02.txt
Players:
[FF]Tempiic / [FF]MoonShadow
[FF]Spectre / [FF]Gustavus2
PS:
I guess Sunshine and Moonlight wanted to take me first just like 2 fishs swam
to the bait. Then, Spectre is the man. He saved the day.
This game was quite fun to me although the 2 of female tigers were not very nice
to me.

Game3 Replay,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I03.rpy
(About 236KB)
Game3 Log,
http://karlpeng.myweb.hinet.net/050224a_I03.txt
Players:
[FF]Tempiic / [FF]Spectre
[FF]MoonShadow / [FF]Gustavus2
PS:
I think I made a big mistake in this game. I shouldn't throw my tired and valuable
cavs went attacking Sunshine's Phalanxs. I should pull back for resting right after
I attacked Spectre.
But Sunshine's Phalanxs were so nearing me.... so I took the bait then lost the time.
Then left poor Moonlight out there, alone.


What a pity the 4th game(Last one for me today) got dropping so didn't have chance
to save replay. I felt the game would be very fun and Louis's mobility within this
game was very interesting and tactical.
Too bad, I can't enjoy the replay for this game since the Duck dropped.
* Quack-Quack-Quack-Quack-Quack ....... * :)

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Spectre
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Post by Spectre » Thu Feb 24, 2005 14:34

Yep, it was fun to be back in the saddle again! My ego got a nice soft landing because of that victorious debut game. And the next game let me in on the differences between MTW and RTW.

IMO the Roman factions play almost like catholics in MTW (but with archers, of course.) Not much to learn there. I don't have an opinion on the supposedly "too fast" speed yet, the games didn't feel overly fast to me. Perhaps it's all those WC3 and RoN matches I've played lately... :wink: I'll get reacquainted to the interface and focus a bit more, then I'll be fine.

Now the question bits. First, the phalanxes.

To put it short, they didn't seem worth much to me. They're sloooow. Sure, you can take 'em off phalanx mode and move them around, but does that also work when attacking? What if, say, a Roman player just wanted to avoid the porcupines? Would you charge that phalanx into melee without using phalanx mode and then shift back once the melee has started? Isn't that just an annoying bit of micromanagement? What about smaller than Large unit sizes - won't they be even more useless?

Second, skirmishing.

In one battle, I failed miserably in skirmishing, but that was just a display of ineptitude and lack of knowledge of the controls. And forgetting to get melee cav support. :P

Anyway. I'm after some magical wisdom on how to use skirmish units. Skirmish mode? Getting out of Canta quickly? (Having skirmish mode enabled while in Canta isn't fast enough to avoid oncoming cav...) Does withdrawing work like it used to?

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Louis Ste Colombe
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Post by Louis Ste Colombe » Thu Feb 24, 2005 16:30

I am not a Roman expert... I think the pilum (high attack + armor piercing) use can make a big difference, but I'd let Annie to comment on that.

Phalanx: it's a tough one. Now, I follow Tempy and put them phalanx off, guard on to start with. It requires some micromanagement, I'd say, all RTW troops require significantly more micromanagement than in MTW; romans got pila throwing, barbarian got warcry, hoplite and pikemen got phalanx formation. I guess Roman can live without pila, and barbarian without warcry, but spearmen really needs the phalanx.
For me the two most important hotkeys are; 1/ run, 2/ special order. And I keep changing from phalanx on or off depending if I got to run or not.
Can a roman just move away from the phalanx? if the phalanx is moving up with phalanx formation on, yes, very easily. With phalanx off, it's just like avoiding any other army; ie, not really easy. Moving from phalanx off to phalanx on requires some good timing. The later you put phalanx on, the better.
Can a roman wait for the phalanx player to put phalanx on back to move back? I guess so, but it can be rather damn close, and it can be at a rather busy time (with also cavalry moving around...). IMO, the best use for a phalanx is to cover a flank, or to move up and occupy a position. Will the roman move back if you attack a small hill, or a position that would split him from his allies?
I also like to have some units able to pin the ennemy units to give some times for phalanx to come. Cavalry can do that, but I often use a couple of sword units to lock some ennemy units and move the phalanx.
I guess the tough question is; is that worth the trouble? Is phalanx power worth all that micromanagement?
I don't know. I just love the sight of nice pikes :)
At smaller than large, I guess phalanx would be even more useless.

Skirmish is definitly good. And it works way better than in MTW, and it's fine to use it for both horse archer and foot archer. I keep heavy javeliner skirmish off, guard on, but that's also because I use them for anti elephant duty.
Skirmishing is a good way to keep your missile unit safe.
Alt-attacking with skirmish on can be.... random...
Canta is a mixed blessing. Pros; you'll avoid ennemy fire. Cons; you'll get tired very fast, you'll hit less, skirmish is not going to work well. Just like phalanx needs to toggle between off&run / on&don't run, canta able units toggle between canta and skirmish.
Some players will shoot your HA, you go for canta circle, they charge you, you move back, they stop the charge, rince and repeat.

Nice to see you back Spectre, I sure hope we'll play some more games.

Louis,

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ladyAn
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Post by ladyAn » Thu Feb 24, 2005 17:40

Uh, am no expert with romans :) How I use roman cohorts: park them in front and throw pilla. then charge.

Precisely because people think Pikes are useless than some of us FFers use them more often :) Also, other people used pikes as a sort of camping defence, which is quite easy to counter.

Advantage of pikes: a bit cheaper than other infantry yet is hardy. When you are in off-phalanx mode, and enemy is inside sarisa, then not all is lost: put it bck to phalanx brought down those sticks and the other infantries do get hits on the head and dies. Of course it is not a prefered thing. But not all is lost when you put phalanx mode back later than optimum.

It is true you could run away when phalanx are around. But couple of things about RTW too:
1. Turn around and run is slow
2. A unit entangled and it takes time to do a 180 U turn
3. When you turn around, your formation is messed up too. It takes time to put back on formation.
4. If you retreat too many times, the troops got penalty hit.

I am trying to play with britains more now. I love warcry and with Britons, I have also the druid and the headhurlers. They are excellent terrorists.

Annie
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Post by Spectre » Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:00

Thanks for the insights, Louis.

What about the skirmish bug for horse archers? I know that they won't fire on the move like in retail and 1.1, but surely they'll follow a fire order if they're not threatened? (Which would basically make them behave like in MTW.) I think it's almost a good thing that the parthian shot doesn't work like it used to, at least it's now possible to chase the horse archers without getting arrows in the face.

A working parthian shot would be nice of course, but wouldn't that leave horse archers without a viable counter unit?

Pila I used yesterday by just setting the legionaries on fire at will. At the end of the game most legionary units had thrown both pila, so I guess they hit something with 'em. I think pila are most useful against phalanxes (it's a way to weaken them from the front) or tied-up units (pila + charge in the back.) I don't think I'd start fiddling with a pilum when a screaming barbarian mob is seconds away from hitting my legionary line... :P

I don't know much at all about the more exotic units like chariots, but I guess I won't be seeing them a lot in 5-8k games...

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Post by Spectre » Thu Feb 24, 2005 18:08

Duh, Annie posted while I was writing my reply... thanks to you too, Annie :)
1. Turn around and run is slow
How about the withdraw command? Does it still work like in MTW, or is it as slow as withdrawing manually?
3. When you turn around, your formation is messed up too. It takes time to put back on formation.
Does this matter much with sword units?
4. If you retreat too many times, the troops got penalty hit.
You mean a morale penalty for moving near enemy units like in MTW? I thought some developer said it was removed, since people considered it annoyting and it wasn't very useful in preventing maneuvering anyway...?

I must confess I'm not very excited about Britons... they have decent inf and chariots, but no archers and poor cavalry options IMO. Maybe the terror strategy works in low-denarii games, but would it be useful in large team games?

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Louis Ste Colombe
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Post by Louis Ste Colombe » Thu Feb 24, 2005 19:55

There is a withdraw hotkeys, I keep mistaking it with rout... errr.... maybe it's rout :P

Maybe I have played too much with phalanx, but even on sword, skirmishers, or heavy skirmishers (like heavy pelstat, Illyrian merc), keeping formation makes a tremendous difference.

You see the funny animation of cavalry charging through a unit? When it runs in circle and kill everyone? It happens WAY more often when units are disorganized or not in formation, whoever they are.

You'll notice that a standing units, when approached by an ennemy will take "a defense stance", if it fails to do so the chance of cavalry running throught it are increased. Being in formation helps to get that stance.

Louis,

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Post by Spectre » Thu Feb 24, 2005 20:37

I tested the withdraw command (hotkey 'W'), and it appears to work similarly. There's a slight delay in executing it, like there is with all other commands, but once they start running they break off quite effectively and flee directly away from nearby enemies. Like in MTW, withdrawing units don't do a U-turn in formation before running, so withdraw is a better "getaway" than just double-clicking at a spot to flee to.

When I asked about the importance of formation for sword units, I meant in context of fighting phalanxes and generally being on the offensive. One could argue that a cavalry charge against any unit that is moving away or tied up in melee is devastating, therefore it's not specific to disorganized sword units. I think that there is no penalty for sword units not attacking in formation... except maybe they don't all charge as effectively.

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Post by Gustavus2 » Fri Feb 25, 2005 13:26

Spectre wrote:I tested the withdraw command (hotkey 'W'), and it appears to work similarly. There's a slight delay in executing it, like there is with all other commands, but once they start running they break off quite effectively and flee directly away from nearby enemies. Like in MTW, withdrawing units don't do a U-turn in formation before running, so withdraw is a better "getaway" than just double-clicking at a spot to flee to.

Old habits sometimes cover mind and make you sticking with inconvenience.
The good example for me is the "Withdraw" command that you mention here.

The "Withdraw" command was useless in first generation of TW game.
Most time they won't come back and just from "withdraw" turn to "rout". So I gave
up this command and became a "habit" for me for a long time.
And, what "skirmish" or "Hit and run" mean to me is, again, as you said, by
clicking somewhere else to order my units get away from enemies.
This way is an "art", tensive and..... stupid. :P

Thanks, I learn this command, again. :)
Let me check and I found that I really used very few, too few of hot keys in
this game. [Ctrl]+[A], [G], [R], [Ctrl]+Left click to multi select, [Alt]+Right
click, [Alt]+Right drag. Now, plus [W].

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Post by Spectre » Fri Feb 25, 2005 17:36

It can still turn to a rout - units breaking off from melee will get some strikes in the "back", so to speak, and a consecutive morale penalty. (Though this is no different from just clicking away.)

They'll also keep running if you don't give them a new order. Withdrawing units also have the "rout flag", but I think that's just a cosmetic way to tell the status of the unit (it's still controllable and doesn't break control groups.)

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ladyAn
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Post by ladyAn » Fri Feb 25, 2005 19:32

I have not successfully use the 'W' command yet and I think I should try that more, because my cav skirmishing is a bit sucky.

On a completely different note, I think whenever we have more than 3 FFers, we should start to host 2 games (or play 2x2 among ourselves). It takes longer to wait for the other game to come back and switch partners, but it also increase the chance to get the game going. RTW doesn't support 4x4 correctly yet. 3x3 is okay. The key also is to rotate among us.

Annie
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